GISGID EP 27 – Women in Cybersecurity

Speaker 1:
Hello and welcome to Get IT Started. Get IT Done, the Banyan Security podcast covering the security industry and beyond. In this episode, our host and Banyan’s Chief Security Officer, Den Jones, speaks with friends of the podcast, Sarah Tenisi and Theresa Peyton about the culture of security in IT, particularly around gender opportunity and filling the critical talent gap in cybersecurity. We hope you enjoy Den’s discussion with Sarah Tenisi and Theresa Payton.

Den Jones:
So hey, welcome everybody to another episode of Get IT Started. Get IT Done. I’m your host, Den Jones. This is Banyan’s entrance into podcasting so if we suck at making software we’re relying on this puppy to bring in all the cash. But I hopefully think, fingers crossed, that’s why I joined we make some good shit. I have got the pleasure of having two of my good friends and fascinating guests, women executive leaders, started their own businesses, so let me do some round of introductions. Theresa, why don’t you go first? Explain who you are and what do you do for a living.

Theresa Payton:
Hey everybody. Okay. So on the personal side, mom of two great rescue Pyrenees, one just passed away, brother and sister pups, best dogs ever. Also, mom to three amazing kids and … Kieran, Aidan, and Maeve. Wife to Chris Payton. On sort of the professional side, I started off as a developer in banking. For anybody who follows the banking industry’s genealogy history, I work for Barnett Bank which is now Bank of America. Then went over to First Union through the Wachovia merger, it’s now Wells Fargo. Then was doing a stint at Bank of America when I got the opportunity to serve at the White House, work for President George W. Bush from 2006 to 2008.
And then following that felt called and led to start my own cybersecurity and intelligence operations company basically, to try and serve others in a way … I couldn’t find a company that could serve me at the White House or the financial services industry. Really focused on less about products and more about the human element. Why do bad things happen despite all of the investment in cybersecurity spending? And a lot of times it comes down to the human element and cybercriminals taking advantage of humans. That’s just a quick recap of who I am. So we’re not only a woman-owned small business, but on my leadership team, I have two partners in my firm who are also women executives who I met at the White House. And we loved working together so much we got the band back together, so to speak, a few years later. It’s just a really great honor to work for great clients and have really great employees.

Den Jones:
Awesome, thank you, Theresa. Sarah.

Sarah Tenisi:
Love it. Thanks for having me. So I’m Sarah Tenisi and I am also a mother of 2. A 24 almost 25-year-old and 19-year-old boys. Started working in IT about 25 years ago as a systems administrator. I love dating myself with this because I ran Adobe’s global email infrastructure prior to there being such a thing as cloud email. Super fun times there. Left Adobe to be an IT director at another company focused on acquisitions and so did a ton of acquisitions, a couple a year, and got to really understand what executives think is important when it comes to IT. Realized that it’s pretty simple, it’s security, service, and productivity.
So with that I started a company called TenisiTech about 12 years ago. We’re an IT services firm focused on security and compliance, outsourced or co-sourced, if you’ve got a team that just needs a little help and CIO advisory work. Like Theresa, I’m super excited to be able to provide services to these amazing clients that we have. And definitely agree that there’s this human element. Even when we are successful in getting people to spend money on the solutions, it’s really about making sure, I think, that we’re focusing on the change management and customer education piece of it. It’s definitely a tricky field. That’s definitely what keeps me up at night is worrying about our clients and their security, and so I’m excited to be here to chat about that.

Den Jones:
Awesome. Well, guys, thank you very much for your time. I know this has been really hard to schedule. We seem to have rescheduled this so many times because we’re all three busy people. Now I’m the only one who’s not a women in technology so I figure I’m going to ask some naive men questions that we men probably don’t think about enough. A couple of things. One is, there’s still a disparity in the industry on females who are leading the charge. What do you guys see as a positive thing that people are doing to address that? And Sarah, why don’t you go first?

Sarah Tenisi:
I mean, this is definitely a tricky one, right, because it is the female leadership piece that continues I think to be a little more challenging, right? So in our practice we’ve certainly … Focusing on women, and diversity, equity, and inclusion and as a whole. And what I think you find is that it’s relatively easy to find opportunities to give to people that are just getting started, but then developing a young woman early in her IT career is where the challenge is. This is why people keep talking about getting people involved, getting education and awareness at a younger age like probably high school or potentially even middle school. I feel like things have changed probably for the better in that there definitely are more women than there used to be, but I still think we have a long way to go in developing people past that entry-level position. And so that’s something I spend a lot of time talk … Thinking about as it pertains to our own practice.

Den Jones:
Then Theresa, any thoughts to add there?

Theresa Payton:
Sarah, I love what you said there. And just to maybe pull on one of those threads that you talked about there around women in technology. Being able to have a role model and a mentor, being able to see yourself on a team, even in the interview process. Who are you putting forward on the interview process to meet with anybody that you’re interviewing from a DEI perspective? Not just female candidates, but looking at all different socioeconomic factors and be thinking about that. So if you’re hiring somebody mid-level in their career, how many mid-level career people do you have? And from a DEI perspective, on that interview panel, who are you presenting from your organization to them? I often say to people as well, “If you want to have a DEI lens when you look at your team, then you have to go to where the candidates are.”
A lot of hiring managers have the perspective of oh, I put it on Indeed and this is what applied. No, go find them. They can be found. Oftentimes what you have to realize is many female candidates don’t feel qualified and they don’t want to go through the process of rejection. And so they don’t feel qualified, they don’t want to apply and be rejected so you have to go find them. So that would be the only thing I would add to what you said, Sarah, is … Because I think you said it so beautifully. Then once you do get the candidates, go and find them, then think about what are you presenting to them. Or how are you making it where they look at the team and they’re like “Wow, I can see myself fitting into this team.”

Sarah Tenisi:
I love that. Can I just add something that Theresa reminded me of? I love this idea of presenting who you want to be. And one of the things I learned early on … Because I had a wonderful mentor who said to me, “Hey, this is your first management position in IT, this is going to be a safe place to learn.” So going back to this idea that women don’t always feel qualified. I think it’s a common understanding out there that women will not apply to jobs if they have less than eight out of 10 of the requirements, for example. If they feel like they’re less than 80ish percent qualified they don’t apply. Back to your point is, who do you present and what do you say to people? I’m not necessarily looking for people that are 100% when they walk in the door because every company has that flavor that they’re trying to instill in their candidates and in their team members. And so I think that’s a really critical piece to it too.

Den Jones:
So I was just thinking, right? Companies like Adobe, they have some really great programs. They’ve got a Women Executive Shadow Program which I volunteered for I think four years in a row. It was one of the things you mentioned there, Sarah, that made me think of it because they highlighted that with all the women in the room. They’re like “Women don’t apply for stuff if they don’t see 100% fit.” And then the other thing is, women tend not to ask for things that they want in their career-

Sarah Tenisi:
Totally.

Den Jones:
Whereas guys will just blunder through and go ask for it. And also, guys will apply for jobs if they’re not even 50% of a match.

Sarah Tenisi:
Totally. Right.

Den Jones:
Legit. They like the title. It’s like hey, I’m shooting for that one. As you go through this, the one thing that I thought of as well, Theresa, that you brought up was really … And, Sarah, you mentioned this I think as well. At the very start there’s an origin story here, there’s skills in the colleges. So do you think that the pipeline of females entering that early stage, do you think that’s improved? I don’t know any data. Are you seeing any improvement there?

Theresa Payton:
It is improving.

Den Jones:
Theresa.

Theresa Payton:
It is improving but we still have a branding problem. Again, just sort of taking something Sarah had mentioned earlier. There was a study done by the Girl Scouts around why do young women sort of start to pipeline themselves very early on into certain careers. Really what they found about, at least their Girl Scout membership that they pulled, was they wanted to know how their job would help people. So if you can take any jobs in STEM and show them how, by learning to be an engineer, you can create safe buildings that you work in or your family works in. So you have to tie to young women how a career in STEM, and technology, and security helps people.
Now, let’s go to the branding issue we have in technology and cybersecurity. What do most of the ads look like? Do they look like people helping people? Do they look happy? Do they look like they’re making … No. Most of the time people look pretty grim. It might be a hacker in a hoodie. I love hoodies. But from a branding perspective, are we really highlighting how being somebody in technology, and then if you decide to have a specialty in cybersecurity, how that really helps people? And I think if we can change that branding around how you help people, and again, get back to that human element, we’re going to attract more people into this.
Because we actually teach courses. One’s taught at a university level but anybody can take it. And we very thoughtfully go to women’s groups, to minority groups and we say, “You deserve this. This is an opportunity to upskill and invest in you. By the way, there’s different ways to get this paid for that doesn’t require your personal checkbook.” I’m paraphrasing. Again, we very purposely go looking for those candidates, and encourage them, and say, “We need you, and we think you would be a great fit here.” It’s like you’ve got to reach that handout and say, “Come on, we want you here.” And then once they’re there show them how they can help people.

Sarah Tenisi:
And I would love to just add something. So I never thought about that branding thing but I think you’re absolutely right, Theresa. I don’t like selling with fear. I’m not fearmongering in our practice, right? Because I think that companies like Banyan … There’s tons of security companies out there right now. The toolset exists. So for me, it’s about hey company, let’s leverage the tool sets that are out there to fix this and to prevent it. You don’t have to be afraid because there’s things you can do. So I love this idea that that is part of the problem. And I’ve always felt really uncomfortable trying to sell with fear so I think that that’s an important thing to highlight.
And the one other thing I would say too is … Den, you were asking, is there a better pipeline from high schools and universities? And I just want to put this idea out there that 20 years ago or … Okay, fine, 25 years ago when I was in college, right, you could not go to school for cybersecurity, it literally was not a course that you could take, right? MIS was barely starting to become a thing, right? The business side of IT was barely out there in the curriculum.
And so for people who are maybe watching that didn’t go to school for this or that haven’t been to college yet, this is … One of my good friends always talks about IT being a trade. You do not have to go to university to be good in cybersecurity or IT as a whole. You have to be resourceful, you have to be resilient, you have to be dedicated but you don’t have to get into some university that’s going to teach you this stuff. And I think that’s a really important component to this. That people think, like you were saying Theresa, that they shouldn’t even try. And you’re like no, come in here we’ll teach you. Or, take these courses that are not university courses and you can learn. And better yet, here’s how you can finance them if you can’t afford it, right? Those are all really big things I think that are changing right now.

Den Jones:
I mean, I’m the guy without the degree, right? I’d done a couple of years in college in Scotland and then just went straight into work and started working my ass off. And I remember, Sarah, you’d done your degree while you were working at Adobe, while you were raising children.

Sarah Tenisi:
Yes.

Den Jones:
And I think you probably had two dogs as well or something on the patio, I don’t know.

Sarah Tenisi:
Two dogs, that’s work.

Den Jones:
So it’s funny because there’s all these different paths. I’d love to hear a story where you went through some issue because you’re the women, right? So what big frustration happened? But then more importantly, what did you learn from that? How would you help share that with others to benefit them? So, Sarah, why don’t you start?

Sarah Tenisi:
I mean, this is a tough one for me. Anytime you’re in an industry where people don’t look like you … Going back to that idea. I always felt really uncomfortable attributing the way I was being treated because I was different, right, because I didn’t ever want to be that person. I’m not saying that was right or wrong, I’m saying that that’s something that I certainly dealt with in my career. And there were certain examples of men being promoted over me with less experience and less tenure in a company. Was it because I was a woman or was it because I wasn’t quite as technical, or, or, or? Was the contribution that I was making not as valued because it was more customer-facing and more education-facing? I don’t know.
But I think what I learned in some of these experiences is that you can’t hang your hat on what other people think of you, right? There’s a couple of examples that I’m thinking of. When I first started my practice I quite literally had a male engineer say, “You’re a woman, you own this company, you do IT.” Literally in the last 10 years. And that’s crazy to me. So it’s like okay, we don’t need to engage with you type of thing. I think it’s out there. I think that I’ve been incredibly lucky to work with men that definitely don’t have these issues. Again, it’s not about letting other people define what you can do, right, it’s about being really intentional when you come across something like that.
I have women on my team, same things happened to them. We work with a lot of startups, a lot of really smart Ph.D. engineers, and she’ll go in there and she’ll say, “Let me take a look at your settings,” and they’re completely floored that she knows her way around what they’re doing. And she’s like “What is that?” Can you say it’s because she’s a woman? Probably. Do we focus on that? Not exactly. I don’t know.

Den Jones:
I think the jam in there, Sarah, is about not being too concerned about what other people think of you. We can take that and then try and overthink it, and overthink it, and overthink it. In the end, there’s probably a whole bunch of unconscious biases kicking in. I have came across engineers that don’t know how to engage with humans and they will blurt out all the stupidest shit in the planet. So even the fact that someone would vocalize that like you’re a woman, are you fucking kidding me? It’s like what the hell? I mean, geez. There are some dumb people out there that just don’t know how to engage and when to keep their mouth shut. Now, in all fairness, you’re talking to me so I’ve got that foot-in-mouth disease.

Sarah Tenisi:
Same.

Den Jones:
But at least when it comes to diversity and stuff I’ve learned over the years … And Adobe was a great training ground for this because they were really culturally aware, diversity aware. Even though I would certainly say, Sarah, there’s been people that I’ve seen promoted in companies like Adobe that you’re just really, that clown? That only inspired me to bust my ass more, right? So, Theresa, what’s your thoughts? Anything to add there?

Theresa Payton:
Well, I think one thing I will add. Because a lot of people will focus on we need more women in cybersecurity or we need more women in technology. I’m just going to put it out there. When is the last time your firm hired a woman-owned small business? When did you give a woman-owned small business or a woman-owned business, they can be large … When did you give them a shot instead of the big-name technology companies or the big-name cybersecurity companies? Check yourself on that. So thankfully Sarah’s got a great reputation and a great set of clients, and I do as well. From time to time I will notice and observe when people say, “Well, we need more women in cybersecurity. And hey, Theresa, can you address our group of women?” And then I’m like “Sure. By the way, we do these services, would you hire my business?” And it’s like “Oh, well, we’ve got an approved vendors list.”

Sarah Tenisi:
Yes.

Theresa Payton:
Okay, put your money where your mouth is. If you want more women in technology and cybersecurity support woman-run, woman-owned small businesses.

Sarah Tenisi:
And I just want to-

Den Jones:
That’s a great one.

Sarah Tenisi:
Comment on that really quickly. There’s been a lot out about did these DEI initiatives of two years ago actually take. And the data’s not great you guys. And I think it’s like what you’re talking about, Theresa. Everybody wants to talk about it no one wants to actually hire for it. And I think that is out in the data right now so why not? It’s not just a talking point. Don’t say it if you don’t mean it.

Den Jones:
I was just thinking that. Our podcast is titled Get IT Started. Get IT Done. I have a reputation of, if a sale do something then 99% of the time I’m going to do it, right? I think there’s so many people that you come across in the industry that they’re just full of lip service. It’s almost like these people that … They’re great at coming up with a strategy slide deck but the execution of the thing they’re talking about is bullshit. And so for me, I love that. Do you say you support it and then take action to support it, or do you just say you support it? One thing I was thinking of is this … Obviously, the pay disparity has been obvious for many years. Do you guys think that gap is improving?

Sarah Tenisi:
I’ll take it just for a second.

Den Jones:
Either one of you.

Sarah Tenisi:
I mean, I definitely have feelings about this. I think it’s interesting, right? Den you said this earlier. Men ask for what they want. And sometimes they ask and you’re talking about … Show me, or tell me, explain to me why. Make the case for me. Women don’t ask. I’m hyper-aware of this difference. And I will quite literally give increases without being asked, particularly to our women and people of color employees because they’re a little bit shyer about this stuff. And I don’t know that this has been corrected. I don’t have all the data, right, but I don’t feel like it’s equal by any stretch at this stage.

Theresa Payton:
I’m not sure what a lot of organizations are doing to look at pay equity across their DEI initiatives. And I do know from working inside large organizations, there would be conversations around … They didn’t call it mommy track but there would be conversations around oh, people taking time off for family, and basically all things being equal, commitment to career. That could be an unconscious bias that still exists today. But what I would tell people is, there’s a lot of really cool new innovative things and thinking around compensation that don’t have to hold you back anymore. So it used to be your employer could ask you “Well, what are you making now? Because we don’t give 20%” … “We don’t give raises above 20% just to get a new hire.” Now you can actually turn that question around.
And the biggest piece of advice I would give to anybody shopping around for a job right now is, when they say, “What would you like to make?” Say, “Well, what is the pay range for this position?” And then think to yourself where you want to be. And then you go for within that pay range based on your capabilities, your knowledge of self, and you go for that. I would say the biggest empowerment change that has happened, at least in the United States, is the fact that people cannot ask you what you’re currently making anymore, therefore, you have … You individually are now in the driver’s seat. And so if you feel you are not compensated the right way then you should post for a job either inside your company or look for a new opportunity. And then when they say to you, “What do you want?” To ask them what the pay range is before you commit to that number.

Sarah Tenisi:
And I will say too, I think some of the larger tech companies … I think Salesforce was a good example of this where they did a study internally and found that women were making quite a bit less than their male counterparts and they fixed it. We know that some of the larger companies … Probably because they’re bigger targets for being publicly shamed than the smaller companies … And I’m not saying that there isn’t good intention in there, I don’t want to sound so cynical about it. We know that there has been change from that perspective. Things don’t change overnight so I don’t want to sound bitter about it either. But I do think the whole ability to … It’s not legal anymore to ask people what they make. I think that’s perfect, right? And in California … I don’t know if this is true in North Carolina, but you must publish pay ranges for jobs in California now so that’s very clear when somebody is applying. Anyways. I just wanted to chime in on that.

Den Jones:
Well, it’s funny because while I was at Adobe they were certainly going down that path of doing that analysis and then trying to right some wrongs. I think it’s a journey. Whether they’re doing it out of the love for the people or whether they’re doing it out of fear of being shamed, right, I mean, I’m not really sure. I think of it like, CEOs don’t want to spend money on shit when it’s going to impact the profit. So spending money, whether it’s on cyber risk reduction or whether it’s employee love and happiness, you need a caring CEO for that to be top of mind when they wake up in the morning.
And I used to always tell people … I would have my all-hands and I’d say to people “Look” … We’d talk about at quarterly all-hands things like compensation, career growth, training, how we invest in the team, and then … And I would always end it with, “If you feel like you’re not being compensated, rewarded, or loved the way you need to be then please speak with your manager.” Have the conversation, right? And then I would say, “Obviously, you run the risk though of your manager thinking you’re a total clown and then them throw that back in your face.” I went “But since we don’t have any clowns in our team we’re lucky.”

Sarah Tenisi:
Well, and then one other thing that-

Den Jones:
So I’d always sprinkle a little joke in the end.

Sarah Tenisi:
And Theresa mentioned this too, I think, or led me to think about this and that is, I feel like workplace culture has changed over the course of our careers, right? I’m guessing we’ve been around for probably similar amounts of time. And I think you, Den, were at Adobe way longer than I was so I wasn’t there for all the amazing work and course correction which I think is wonderful. Theresa, you talked about companies talking about dedication to career.
And I will say in my … In our practice, all the dads take paternity leave. And we’re only required to do that in California but we do it for everybody regardless of where they work. I would say that leaders are sort of expected to have more boundaries than they ever did before, right? And more, I think, supportive attitudes to families, in general, whether or not it’s to men or women employees. I think that’s been a really interesting change that I’m glad to see. Because back in the day you put in 20-hour days no problem, if you were working on some cutover or project, and it was expected. You’re going to miss a birthday, too bad get on a plane, right? That’s not so much a thing anymore, at least in my world.

Den Jones:
Theresa, do you think … Do you have anything to add there? Feel the same?

Theresa Payton:
Corporate culture, there’s been so much discussion. If anything good came out of the pandemic … Maybe one of the things that we became more open to talking about is culture, awareness, mental health, boundaries. When you’re working out of your house, and living out of your house, and your house is your entertainment and everything when you’re in lockdown it’s like you have to figure out boundaries. So I think a lot of good has come out of it and a focus on corporate culture. Corporate culture is what’s going to attract great employees and great clients, and it’s what’s going to create retention. Work is hard enough, life is hard enough, you might as well have a good corporate culture, and have a few laughs, and have a good time while you’re working.

Sarah Tenisi:
Exactly.

Den Jones:
We do a really serious job, right, so there’s a lot of pressure. The organizations I ran there’s like … You’re keeping the lights on. People aren’t logging in if my teams shits not up and running, right? There was always a lot of stress and pressure. And I found over the years, for me, humor is one of the best things. And then the other thing is if I can get to a position where you’re not hanging them from the basketball court if they screw something up … In Adobe IT, we lived for years under the fear of being absolutely crucified in this thing called the morning meeting, right? It’s like the volume’s turned up.

Sarah Tenisi:
Yes. Oh, God.

Den Jones:
And I was lucky enough years later to be running service management, and I actually worked with one of my bosses to just shit can that meeting. We’re like “It doesn’t help.” It doesn’t help morale and it doesn’t really help reduce the number of outages caused by mistakes or whatever, right? You can do the retrospective a whole other way without feeling like you’re going through the walk of shame in the morning. And even worse, you could’ve been on a call, fixed a problem at 3:00 in the morning, and then you’d be expected to be on that 8:00 AM call. It’s like no way. I’m conscious of our time. I know you guys have been gracious with your time with me so thank you for that. A couple of things as we leave. Theresa, you’re involved in a few of the community outreachy things. Do you want to share some of that work that you’re doing?

Theresa Payton:
Sure, absolutely. So for starters, well, we love to do pro bono work and pro bono training for National Center for Missing & Exploited Children. A special place in my heart for ending human trafficking, especially the things going on with children as well as missing children and getting them back into a safe place, their family, or wherever they need to be. We also have a group on LinkedIn. This was an idea that the women on … In my company came up with called Help a Sister Up. It is for everyone to join. And it’s just a safe place to post things like “Hey, we’re looking for women speakers, or there’s a scholarship, or there’s an award, or we’re posting a job.” If anybody’s interested in joining Help A Sister Up, we manage the group.
Thankfully we’ve never had any problems with people who have joined the group. It’s just been a great place. People have been … Found mentees, people have found mentors, people have found jobs. It’s just a great place. People have asked, “I’m doing research, can people let me know if you’d like to take a poll for my research or be interviewed?” That’s been just a very easy, organic, safe space for sharing ideas and things like that.
And then certainly I’m always available. I tell people, “I may not answer you right away.” But if you reach out to me on LinkedIn, I’m on Twitter. I started Threads. I don’t know how I feel about Threads. I’m on Instagram. Just reach out to me and I’m happy to be of service however I can just be patient with my calendar. But I do mentor people. People will reach out to me and I’ll say, “Well, I’m happy to mentor you but here’s the thing, you got to do homework first, and show me you’ve done the homework, and then I will give you 30 minutes of my time to mentor you.” Just be prepared. If you ask to be mentored by me I’m going to give you homework to do first.

Sarah Tenisi:
Love it.

Den Jones:
Awesome, awesome. And then also, Girls Who Code as well, right, that’s another organization. Are you still involved with that, Theresa, as well?

Theresa Payton:
I’m not as involved just because there’s a lot of great volunteers volunteering there so I try to roll and spend my time … I sit on a couple boards. I’m outgoing board of trustees at Immaculata University and doing special projects over there just making sure the cybersecurity program and the technology programs there are really solid and modern, and what the current employers need. Also spend a lot of time with the University of Virginia program which is where I had the opportunity to get my master’s.
Based on what you guys were saying earlier as well … So I came from a family where if anybody did get a degree it was while they were an adult. I’m just so fortunate, as a female in tech in the early years, I was able to get scholarships because they were looking for more women to enter this field. And so I would say to anybody who’s in the workforce right now just to understand, there are a lot of grants and scholarships. We are looking for you. So if you feel like you need a college degree … By the way, in many cases you don’t.
I do believe that this field we need more apprenticeships. And I would like to see more companies commit to apprenticeships. Go into the high school, do vocational work, do apprenticeships, and allow people to get straight into the workforce. And if they choose to do college and things then offer tuition reimbursement while they’re working. I was very fortunate, most people in my family don’t get to go straight out of high school into college. And I just chalk it up to people having vision, and caring, and setting aside the scholarship dollars or I would’ve been in the same boat as you Sarah, and Den in trying to figure it out. Hopping into the workforce, and figuring it out, and going to school later.

Den Jones:
That’s brilliant. And Sarah, it’s funny, your origin is going through college and stuff, or university, while you were studying and being a mother. Any advice for other young mothers that are trying to do that for themselves now?

Sarah Tenisi:
I’ll tell you what, I had some incredibly supportive leaders that I worked for. Everybody who I worked for, after my stint in engineering, knew that I had been in engineering school because it comes up in the interviews. When I worked at Hewlett-Packard I worked for what eventually spun off to Agilent, but I had bosses that were like “We’re going to put spectrometers on your desk and we want you to understand how these products work.” I go to Adobe, I got a job as an administrative assistant where my boss said, “You have one year in this role and you got to go because you’re technical and you need to be working in technology.” Found somebody at Adobe and said, “Hey, I want to work in technology” and they said, “Okay, we’re giving you a shot.” And actually, Adobe paid for half of my education, they had an education program. I had managers that let me go to school full time so I’d come in four hours, leave for four hours, come back for four hours. Definitely I had that help.
And so I think when you’re choosing where to work, if you have a choice, right, you want to work for people that get what you’re trying to do and are supportive of that. I absolutely had a ton of that help. And then moving on to WageWorks and having people say, “Hey, this is a safe place to learn. We’re small, we’re going to grow but this is where you get to learn.” I was just incredibly fortunate to work with people that understood that there was more I wanted to do specific to technology.

Den Jones:
That’s awesome, that’s awesome. And then I want to close it out for both of you. What was it that inspired you to start your own business? And then if there’s a woman who’s thinking of doing that herself, what advice do you have for them? Or guy, I guess, but more female thinking here. Sarah, why don’t you go first?

Sarah Tenisi:
I just realized how much I loved meeting with different executive teams and helping them solve problems. And so when I was working internal to a company you solved the problems of the organization and that was really fun as well. There was just this point in time that I felt passionate enough about what I was doing that I thought I could do it for other companies. And at the time I wasn’t even sure if I wanted to be an entrepreneur, I didn’t even give that part of it much thought. I also didn’t even understand that I was effectively starting an MSP, right, because this is 12 years ago and that was not even really in our vernacular. It was but it wasn’t so I didn’t even really understand that.
And I’ll tell you a quick little thing that I think about often is people think that starting businesses is risky. And people think oh, how can you leave that cushy job? But the reality is, corporations are corporations and you’re there as long as they need you. And if there’s a point in time that they don’t need you they will let you go. And when you have a book of business as an entrepreneur, you have to get fired as many times as you have clients in one day to not have a livelihood. I always rely on that thinking to say, “Hey, it could be a lot worse, this could be gone tomorrow.” So that’s why building the relationships with customers is so important so that you … That is your backup plan to just find more customers if something doesn’t work out with one. I just felt like I could do it. I felt like I wanted to do it, and I wanted the autonomy, and I wanted the influence, and here we are.

Den Jones:
Awesome, awesome. Theresa, why don’t you close it out with your thoughts on that?

Theresa Payton:
Well, Sarah, that’s an incredible story, very inspiring. So I was leaving the White House and I’m seven months pregnant with my third, my little girl Maeve, Queen Maeve of the household … Princess right now because she’s too young to be queen but one day she will be. I was going on interviews and telling people, “Don’t worry but” … I mean, the belly’s sticking out. I’m only five feet tall so the belly’s about five feet wide and I’m five feet tall. And I’m saying, “I love to work, I’m planning on working.” Interviewing for jobs. When I would talk about the capabilities of the adversary … So this is late 2008, summer to late 2008. The capabilities, the adversary, what I could share that wasn’t classified, and what I felt was coming at us next, and how we needed to prepare, and how we needed to really be focusing on human user stories, and how technology was being built, and safety by design and security by design. People just weren’t talking like that.

Sarah Tenisi:
No.

Theresa Payton:
I was getting pigeonholed back into jobs I had done before, or CIO jobs and things like that. I just really felt this sense of urgency that really bad things were coming. My husband just said, “Well, why don’t you start your own business?” And I said, “Well, we don’t do that here. We’re military, law enforcement. Our family doesn’t do that.” And he was like “Well, just try it out and if you don’t like it you could always go back to Corporate America”

Sarah Tenisi:
Go back to work, exactly.

Theresa Payton:
So I started the business just by myself. I didn’t want to worry about somebody couldn’t make their mortgage payment if I couldn’t bring in enough business or if I didn’t have the right solution. Or maybe I had the right solution but nobody wanted it. Just tried to learn a lot on my own and then brought on 1099s. The next thing I know it’s 2023 and I created this great book of clients and things. And what I would say to anybody thinking about starting a business is one, make sure your family and friends support you. Make sure they’re all in because it is … Unless you’re just doing your own independent consulting … If you’re going to take on a payroll it does become all-consuming in a different way than Corporate America is all-consuming.
And then two, once you know that, sit down, talk to people you know and trust that love you that will be honestly critical of what your shortcomings might be as a business owner. And then find ways to have amazing people around you that are better than you. For me, it’s prayer and faith, and forge ahead, and no fear. And, Sarah, you’re right. You’ve been in business long enough, and I have at this point, the ups and downs of the economy and things like that, and you just have to just find really smart people to be around you to help you with those pieces, and then just do great work and be passionate about it.

Den Jones:
Awesome, awesome. Well, ladies, thank you very much. Very inspiring. And hopefully, for our audience, there’s some people inspired, and A want to take action. So a couple of takeaways that I thought of is take action by supporting women-led small businesses. And don’t just say you’re supporting it but actually bring them on as partners in your team in business. And then ultimately, don’t be scared to ask. You don’t need to meet all the criteria to apply for some of those jobs out there. For me, those are a couple of takeaways that I think are just awesome. Guys, thank you very much for your time I really appreciate it. Love catching up with both of you. In person would always be better, it is always better with cocktails. Thanks, guys, it’s always a pleasure.

Theresa Payton:
Oh. Den, it’s always great to be with you. And Sarah, it was so great to get to know you better.

Sarah Tenisi:
Super fun.

Theresa Payton:
What a great executive you are.

Sarah Tenisi:
I feel exactly the same. Thanks you two.

Den Jones:
Thanks, guys, really appreciate it. Take it easy.

Speaker 1:
Thanks for listening. To learn more about Banyan Security and find future episodes of the podcast, please visit us at banyansecurity.io. Special thanks to UrbanPunks for providing the music for this episode. You can find their track Summer Silk and all their music at urbanpunks.com.

 

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